RIVE BE - Ivy E OCing Clarifications

[riesscar]

Hello all,

I am posting this in order to clarify a few things about the overclocking process re: the guides posted by RAJA at the top of this forum. First of all, my system specs:

Chassis: 900D
MB: RIVE BE @BIOS 0602
CPU: 4930K
RAM: 32GB (4x8) Corsair Dom Plat 2133Mhz (XMP profile 9-11-11-31 @1.65)
PSU: ax1200i
GPU: EVGA 780ti Superclocked
OS: Windows 8.1 Pro x64

Firstly, I have managed to achieve a stable overclock (passed 12 hours of AIDA64 stability testing and ROG realbench benchmark test) at XMP profile speed and timings and a cpu overclock to 4.4Ghz. As the guide suggests, I now intend to find the MEP with regard to Vcore. On this note, we come to my first question:

When looking to find the 'MEP', should I do so in the BIOS each time, or should (can) I make these changes dynamically in the OS via the AI Suite III? This question goes for other sorts of overclocking procedures/optimizations as well. For example, when trying to lower my memory timings, should I use memtweakit or do you recommend changing these settings in the BIOS?

My next couple of questions relate to a broader issue that I have found: I know that there will be those who say that I am incorrect about this, but -- from what I can tell -- the board (or perhaps it is all x79 boards) simply fails to regulate voltages effectively. For example, just about every single BSOD I have encountered has been related to some sort of undervoltage or overvoltage by the board's power regulation, and these settings have been left at 'auto'. I regularly look to find that my VCORE is set WAYYYY to high 4.35 +, just to pass a stress test at a modest overclock. This brings me to my questions:

1.) There are not a whole lot of specifics in the aforementioned guides regarding which of the BIOS settings should be tweaked in the interest of stability. Here are some things that I have read elsewhere. One tutorial recommended turning off Intel Speedstep because it causes voltage problems and instability. What about things like CPU current capability/load line calibration/ power phase control/ spread spectrum, etc... . While I know that there is no "one size fits all" collection of settings, surely there are some basic guidelines about settings for each of these... perhaps I just missed that guide.

2.) What is a good voltage 'MEP' to start with regarding VCORE for a an overclock such as the one I posted above?

3.) I read somewhere that it is generally better to set your DRAM frequency and timings manually, because using XMP can cause undervoltage issues. Is there any truth to this?

4.) On the issue of memory, can someone point me in a good direction to understand the way that the plethora of RAM timings interact, what each means and what settings are optimal... basically a guide to memory timings?

I am basically looking to take back as much control control from the board/system as possible regarding voltage fluctuations and sudden changes in frequencies. For example, I have absolutely no energy concerns, so I don't like for the system to throttle back my cpu because it has decided that I am not using it. If I understood the IVY-e OC guide correctly, the VCORE should not exceed 1.40v; therefore, it seems that 'auto' is letting the system overvoltage my cpu.

I don't know, I have so many questions that I don't where to begin and end. I guess this will do for now. Any help that can be provided would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Carson

[Raja]

Hi,

Lots of questions here - some outside the numbered area which I will get to at the end.

1) Stick with the settings mentioned in the guides - anything not mentioned is usually not required (leave those things on Auto unless otherwise stated). No point in adjusting things for the sake of it, or because someone on another forum thinks it does something it does not do in reality. Brevity or directness in my guides is for the purpose of keeping people in "tunnel vision mode" on the things that matter.

2) Finding the MEP is a process of evaluation that you need to perform yourself on the CPU. Find the minimum Vcore on a range of multiplier ratios (run stability tests). Look for when a non-linear jump is required to increase core frequency to the next ratio.

If you have thermal headroom to push higher then you would start taking notes say from 4.2GHz upwards until you find the point where you are either out of thermal headroom with the cooling being used or you reach the point where a non-linear Vcore increase is required.

3) No.

4) Don't focus on memory too much - get the CPU stable. Memory is a complex subject that very few people can grasp. There are things that elude me even now. Most of the guides posted by users on various forums or even "professional" overclockers have no real understanding associated with them. They are guides formed by trial and error rather than actual knowledge of the subject and what each timing does at the electrical level. That being said, one can work through the timings and take note of how they affect performance and stability - it just takes time.


i) Memory timings are best adjusted from within UEFI.

ii) You can use AI Suite to tune Vcore within the OS and later apply the value within UEFI if it is required.

iii) Voltage regulation and setting a wrong level of voltage are two different things. Regulation refers to real time voltage stability under load conditions which is a different topic entirely to setting a voltage that is either too high or too low.

-Raja

[riesscar]

Raja@ASUS wrote:
Hi,

Lots of questions here - some outside the numbered area which I will get to at the end.

1) Stick with the settings mentioned in the guides - anything not mentioned is usually not required (leave those things on Auto unless otherwise stated). No point in adjusting things for the sake of it, or because someone on another forum thinks it does something it does not do in reality. Brevity or directness in my guides is for the purpose of keeping people in "tunnel vision mode" on the things that matter.

2) Finding the MEP is a process of evaluation that you need to perform yourself on the CPU. Find the minimum Vcore on a range of multiplier ratios (run stability tests). Look for when a non-linear jump is required to increase core frequency to the next ratio.

If you have thermal headroom to push higher then you would start taking notes say from 4.2GHz upwards until you find the point where you are either out of thermal headroom with the cooling being used or you reach the point where a non-linear Vcore increase is required.

3) No.

4) Don't focus on memory too much - get the CPU stable. Memory is a complex subject that very few people can grasp. There are things that elude me even now. Most of the guides posted by users on various forums or even "professional" overclockers have no real understanding associated with them. They are guides formed by trial and error rather than actual knowledge of the subject and what each timing does at the electrical level. That being said, one can work through the timings and take note of how they affect performance and stability - it just takes time.


i) Memory timings are best adjusted from within UEFI.

ii) You can use AI Suite to tune Vcore within the OS and later apply the value within UEFI if it is required.

iii) Voltage regulation and setting a wrong level of voltage are two different things. Regulation refers to real time voltage stability under load conditions which is a different topic entirely to setting a voltage that is either too high or too low.

-Raja

Thanks as always RAJA.

-Carson

[riesscar]

Hey RAJA,

I just noticed this quote from your answer, and I wonder if I'm misunderstanding you or the other way around:

iii) Voltage regulation and setting a wrong level of voltage are two different things. Regulation refers to real time voltage stability under load conditions which is a different topic entirely to setting a voltage that is either too high or too low.

In the UEFI, the voltages are set to automatic... at least after the initial setting of either 'manual' or 'offset'. It is in this scenario that I refer to the board/chipset/platform/whatever being poor at regulating voltage. In other words, if I boot successfully into the OS with an overclock, and all of my voltages are left at optimized defaults, then I have not set any level... I've left it up to the board to decide, correct? This voltage varies according to what is required, right? This is what you mean by 'real time' I think. If the system is determining the proper voltage, and that voltage is either too high or too low, then is not the system failing to set the correct levels? Also, if the system crashes during stress-testing with something like a "whea-uncorrectable", and the bluescreen crash dump indicates it is ntkernal related, then the problem is that the "real-time" voltage regulation failed to accomplish its stated goal... in other words, if I left all voltages on auto and booted successfully, but crashed during a stress test, then hasn't the board failed to provide the correct amount voltage to some circuit? I could be way off-base, but if the problem with the system's stability is that I need to manually tell the board what VCORE or VCCSA or VTT value to use, then I'm confused as to how it is not the case that the board is failing to regulate/set its voltages correctly. (I know that I keep pinning it on the board... but I mean to say whichever component is responsible for this. So this could be the board, cpu, or perhaps it is a flaw in the chipset architecture).

As I read over the post I am beginning to worry that it sounds like I am trying to argue with or inform you RAJA -- that is certainly not the case. I am simply trying to understand why the voltages are not set automatically and adjusted dynamically when overclocking.

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

-Carson

[Raja]

riesscar wrote:
Hey RAJA,

I just noticed this quote from your answer, and I wonder if I'm misunderstanding you or the other way around:



In the UEFI, the voltages are set to automatic... at least after the initial setting of either 'manual' or 'offset'. It is in this scenario that I refer to the board/chipset/platform/whatever being poor at regulating voltage. In other words, if I boot successfully into the OS with an overclock, and all of my voltages are left at optimized defaults, then I have not set any level... I've left it up to the board to decide, correct? This voltage varies according to what is required, right? This is what you mean by 'real time' I think. If the system is determining the proper voltage, and that voltage is either too high or too low, then is not the system failing to set the correct levels? Also, if the system crashes during stress-testing with something like a "whea-uncorrectable", and the bluescreen crash dump indicates it is ntkernal related, then the problem is that the "real-time" voltage regulation failed to accomplish its stated goal... in other words, if I left all voltages on auto and booted successfully, but crashed during a stress test, then hasn't the board failed to provide the correct amount voltage to some circuit? I could be way off-base, but if the problem with the system's stability is that I need to manually tell the board what VCORE or VCCSA or VTT value to use, then I'm confused as to how it is not the case that the board is failing to regulate/set its voltages correctly. (I know that I keep pinning it on the board... but I mean to say whichever component is responsible for this. So this could be the board, cpu, or perhaps it is a flaw in the chipset architecture).

As I read over the post I am beginning to worry that it sounds like I am trying to argue with or inform you RAJA -- that is certainly not the case. I am simply trying to understand why the voltages are not set automatically and adjusted dynamically when overclocking.

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

-Carson

What you refer to is not voltage "regulation" per se. The term regulation when referencing voltage is as I described above.

To clarify what you are referring to:

1) We code UEFI to set voltages by a table according to which multiplier ratio is selected. The rule for this are determined by binning a large number of CPU samples. We cannot account for every scenario as each CPU is different. There is no magic bullet for every combination of parts or part variance.


2) When it comes to Offset and Adaptive voltage modes (where available) the voltage changes with multiplier ratio and or processor frequency are programmed by Intel not UEFI or ASUS.


In short, when one is tuning a system or pushing a system, manual tuning of critical voltages MAY be required.
-Raja

[riesscar]

Raja@ASUS wrote:
What you refer to is not voltage "regulation" per se. The term regulation when referencing voltage is as I described above.

To clarify what you are referring to:

1) We code UEFI to set voltages by a table according to which multiplier ratio is selected. The rule for this are determined by binning a large number of CPU samples. We cannot account for every scenario as each CPU is different. There is no magic bullet for every combination of parts or part variance.


2) When it comes to Offset and Adaptive voltage modes (where available) the voltage changes with multiplier ratio and or processor frequency are programmed by Intel not UEFI or ASUS.


In short, when one is tuning a system or pushing a system, manual tuning of critical voltages MAY be required.
-Raja

Ah, now I understand. I was thinking that 'automatic' voltage settings meant that the board detects how much voltage is required at boot up and tunes itself accordingly, but now I understand that it means an automatic preset value based upon the mean voltage requisite of many tested chips. Thanks for the clarification.

- Carson

[Arne_Saknussemm]

riesscar wrote:
4.) On the issue of memory, can someone point me in a good direction to understand the way that the plethora of RAM timings interact, what each means and what settings are optimal... basically a guide to memory timings?

Personally I am waiting for Raja to write this guide;)...but in the meantime I found this the other day but not had time to read it and digest but at first glance looks good

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3851/everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-sdram-memory-but-were-...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/memory-performance-16gb-ddr31333-to-ddr32400-on-ivy-bridge-igp-wi...

[riesscar]

Arne Saknussemm wrote:
Personally I am waiting for Raja to write this guide;)...but in the meantime I found this the other day but not had time to read it and digest but at first glance looks good

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3851/everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-sdram-memory-but-were-...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/memory-performance-16gb-ddr31333-to-ddr32400-on-ivy-bridge-igp-wi...

Thanks Arne! I'll give them a read... then ask for clarification from RAJA;)

[riesscar]

Ok,

So after hours of testing I found what I believe is my 4930k's 'MEP' @ 43x Multiplier with my Corsair Dom Plats running at 2133 MHz in accordance with the XMP profile. The lowest I could get my VCore and still remain stable during stress testing was 2.50v. I haven't attempted to push the cpu further yet, but I'm wondering what echelon this places my CPU bin. It seems from what I've read on the forums that I have a below average chip, as I've seen many running 4.5GHz @ 2.0v on the VCore... although they typically are running 16GBs of RAM.

My question is this:

Because I have the Intel Performance Tuning Plan for my cpu, would y'all take the gamble and replace the chip? I mean, if I cannot break 4.5GHz -- and must run a high VCore (4.0)to run at this speed -- then aren't the chances pretty high that I'll receive at least an equally capable bin... if not better?

-Carson

[Arne_Saknussemm]

riesscar! you are scaring me with those voltage numbers....you mean 1.25......1.2v?

Also the Intel plan is insurance for a dead CPU from OCing....it's not an exchange program. Best to just ebay the chip and get another one...though of course you might have worse luck too :eek:

If you mean 1.25v that is pretty conservative...1.3 or a bit more I would consider OK voltage if temps are well under control and that should get you 4.4GHz which is a good all round OC for almost everything computing related. Of course if you want to get into benching then you will want to hunt for a better CPU I guess.