NGFF on R.O.G motherboards

[a5cent]

Hello everyone

I'm planning my next personal desktop build and need some help understanding Asus' motherboards.

My primary requirements are:
- PCIe based SSD with 2GB/s read/write speeds (must)
- Dedicated graphics card (must)
- Smaller is better (I would prefer a mini-ITX build)

I wasn't really expecting this to be feasible, because I'd need two PCIe slots. One for the GPU and one for the PCIe based SSD, whereas mini-ITX mainboards have but a single PCIe slot.

Then... I came across this post which got me very excited:

http://rog.asus.com/238712013/country/rog-hq/this-is-why-ngff-is-the-best-choice-for-maximus-vi-moth...

The ADATA XNP280 SSD referenced in that post is a PCIe (x4) based solution, offering up to 1.8GB/s read/write speeds. That is close enough to what I'm looking for.

However, it seems as if the m.2 socket on the R.O.G. Maximus VI Impact uses but a single PCIe lane (x1). That would cripple the XNP280 to almost a fourth of its capability. I'm having trouble believing that Asus would tease NGFF compatibility with this great NGFF SSD, if it ends up being no better your average SATA3 based solution. Am I understanding this correctly, or am I missing something?

If this is really only a PCIe x1 solution, then my question is whether there are any Mini-ITX alternatives with a proper NGFF solution providing PCIe x4?

Thanks for your feedback and clarifications!

[HiVizMan]

Your bigger issue is the fact that you can not source the NGFF socket SSD drives as yet, or at least I can not.

[a5cent]

Thank you both for your replies!

HiVizMan wrote:
Your bigger issue is the fact that you can not source the NGFF socket SSD drives as yet, or at least I can not.

That is true, but many products will be coming to market during the next two or three months:

Plextor m.2 (M6) PCIe x2
ADATA m.2 (AXNP280) PCIe x4
Samsung m.2 (XP941) PCIe x4 = available now to OEMs
Intel m.2 (530 or 1500 Series) PCIe x1 = available now to OEMs
Micron m.2 (M500) PCIe x1 = available now to OEMs

Changing the mPCIe combo card to support an m.2 socket in place of a mSATA connector was presumably an attempt to future proof the motherboard. However, being a PCIe x1 socket, there is no benefit to be had over a traditional SATA3 SSD. What's the point?

I think this is forgivable on boards like the M6F, M6H or M6G, as they all have extra PCIe slots allowing us to add a full sized PCIe SSD card. However, on boards like the M6I (Maximus VI Impact), there is but a single PCIe slot that most will use for the GPU, meaning the m.2 socket is the only remaining connector. Unfortunately, being limited to PCIe x1 precludes it from fully exploiting any of the upcoming high-end NGFF solutions. Considering the M6I has more than enough unused/free PCIe lanes, this seems like a major oversight. What a shame!

This results in the strange situation, where high-end notebooks/ultrabooks (like the Mac Book Air) will provide immensely superior storage IO performance compared to anything we could build using the M6I. IMHO that is at least somewhat embarrassing. IMHO it also instantly outdates the M6I, at least for those looking to incorporate high-end PCIe based SSDs.

Praz wrote:
M.2 on the M6F is limited to a single 2.0 PCIe lane and you also loose one of the Intel SATA 6Gb/sports when using it. So of the options listed above this is not even a contender.

Well, in that case it looks like I'm back to square one. I'll have to rethink whether I want to go with a micro-ATX board now, or wait for a motherboard manufacturer to provide a mini-ITX board with a more capable m.2 x4 socket.

Anybody have any idea when we may see such motherboards?

IMHO this would be a great business opportunity for ASUS! I'd instantly buy a R.O.G. branded m.2 x4 PCIe SSD to go along with a new Maximus VII Impact.

[Praz]

Copy and paste from another post I just made as it applies to all of the ROG boards.

Praz wrote:
M.2 on the M6F is limited to a single 2.0 PCIe lane and you also loose one of the Intel SATA 6Gb/sports when using it. So of the options listed above this is not even a contender.

[HiVizMan]

Thanks for your very reasoned and rational response. I will pass this thread up the information ladder.

[a5cent]

HiVizMan wrote:
Thanks for your very reasoned and rational response. I will pass this thread up the information ladder.

Thank you.

I'd love to get the capabilities of my current desktop into a mini-ITX sized build, so I'll probably hold off. In the mean time, if you hear anything relating to m.2@x4, please let us know. I'll keep an eye on these R.O.G. forums.

[a5cent]

I've done some reading since I was last here and wanted to summarize my thoughts. You know… ensure I'm not misunderstanding anything and see if you guys agree with my take on where mainboard manufacturers should be headed, particularly Asus with their ROG line.

The entire industry is shifting ever more towards SSD based mass storage. SSDs have so far used the exact same connection technology as traditional HDDs, meaning SATA. With SATA I am referring to:

- the SATA connector (i.e. physical plug)
- the SATA electrical interface (which wires carry power or signals, which recognize connections, etc)
- the AHCI protocol (the commands/data exchanged between storage controllers and SATA devices).

Unfortunately, this set of technologies has been a bottleneck for years now, preventing SSDs from reaching their full potential. The industry has recognized the need for a better connection between SSDs and storage controllers. The solution is SATA Express and m.2

This table visualizes my current understanding of the situation:



The area shaded orange represents the technology available to us on motherboards today. The darker orange area represents the new m.2 connector that Asus mounted on their mPCIe combo II card, which ships with current VI generation ROG motherboards. It replaces the mSATA connector used on previous generation combo cards.

SATA Express is the name for both a new connector and a new electrical interface. Its main feature is that it combines the electrical interfaces of both SATA3 and PCIe. Being an amalgamation, the entirety of the area shaded green is what the term SATA Express refers to. SATA Express is specified to scale with the PCIe standard, meaning it supports PCIe 2.0 and 3.0 today and will support PCIe 4.0 at some point in the future.

As is apparent from the table above, the m.2 connector also supports both SATA3 and PCIe, and its electrical interface is in fact specified as a superset of SATA Express, the main difference being that it also supports a single PCIe lane. I’m unsure if m.2 is intended to support anything beyond PCIe 2.0. At least none of the existing products go beyond PCIe 2.0.


EDIT:
When I first wrote this post I was far too tired and shouldn't have made the attempt. As a result I've heavily edited the above. It now reflects only my current understanding of the PC storage situation. I'll speculate on where this is all headed in a future post.

[HiVizMan]

I think you are quite close to the fact of the matter. With storage being the most dynamic growth area within IT. Just think of the huge amount of investments that companies like HP have made over the last three years in the storage side of their business model for example. It is not surprising to me that vendors are going to have to gamble as to what will be the protocol for the future. SATA express is certainly a very exciting prospect and will accelerate the evolution of storage I am sure.

Nice post once again my friend.

[a5cent]

In my previous post I tried to summarize my understanding of the current storage interface situation (I heavily revised it just before posting this).

Here I would like to ask you all, where you think this is headed, and how you expect Asus to support these upcoming standards.

Intel’s next generation chipset, Z97, will allegedly support a single SATA Express port, capable of running at PCIe 3.0 x2 (achieving transfer rates four times that of current SATA3 SSDs). I suspect everything related to conventional SATA Express is simple and straight forward, in the sense that Asus’ motherboards will just ship with whatever features Intel’s future chipsets support.

What the deal is with m.2 seems a lot murkier to me however.

I’ve previously stated that IMHO the m.2 connector on Asus’ current combo cards, running at PCIe 2.0 x1, makes absolutely no sense (it offers nothing over a conventional SATA3 SSD).

So, my first and foremost expectation is that any motherboard supporting m.2 connectors allow for PCIe. 2.0 x4!

Then there is the issue of m.2 card form factors. M.2 cards come in lengths of 42 mm, 60 mm, 80 mm, and 110 mm. Unfortunately, Asus' current combo card solution only supports the smallest of them, limiting the customers choice in m.2 storage card capacity. I find this sub-optimal.

I would hope that any ROG motherboard supporting m.2 connectors allow for full length m.2 cards (110 mm).

For the reasons mentioned, I think the combo cards (at least in their current form with their limited support for m.2 cards), isn’t the right way to go.

Instead of adding m.2 support via the combo card, I would hope that Asus’ future motherboards include (or make separately available) an adapter-card that accepts any sized m.2 card and plugs into any PCIe 2.0 x4 slot.

Beyond meeting my hopes and expectations (and hopefully others), I suspect this would also be cheaper for Asus to manufacture, as they wouldn’t have to route four PCIe lanes to the combo card, and neither would they have to make those lanes configurable in the BIOS. This solution would also work for Asus’ non-ROG boards that don’t support the ROG combo card.

Obviously, this adapter-card based solution only works for uATX sized boards and larger, as they are likely to have free PCIe slots into which such an adapter-card can be inserted. That brings me to mini-ITX.

Mini-ITX boards rarely sport free PCIe slots, and the current combo card solution doesn’t make any more sense for mini-ITX motherboards than it does for its larger brethren. However, there appear to be a total of six unused PCIe lanes (guessing) on the M6I (Maximus VI Impact).

I would hope that Asus’ next ROG branded mini-ITX motherboard ship with two m.2 connectors integrated directly onto the motherboard. One running at PCI 2.0 x2 and the other at PCIe 2.0 x4. This would be a great way of utilising those wasted PCIe lanes without using up a lot of space on the motherboard.

So. That’s it so far. Do my hopes and expectations make sense? Thoughts? What do you think Asus should provide in terms of SATA Express support on upcoming ROG motherboards?

P.S. Thanks for the pat on the back HiVizMan

[Nawesemo]

Woooosh... as this all flies over my head.

(not that it matters on account i doubt i'll understand, but ...)

NGFF? M.2!?